0:03
father we do thank you again for this opportunity to be in your word and to be together uh we do indeed lift up the mcra to you and ask that you might provide uh immense Comfort this
0:19
sudden loss um that you would be an everpresent help in this time of of trouble and we pray for safety as they travel
0:29
especially as distraught as they must be father we do ask that you would be with us tonight and guide our thoughts
0:39
and our conversation and our perceptions as we study your word study what Paul has to say about the new
0:50
creation the new Humanity the church in the world and as we talk about traditions and ideas and beliefs Bel
1:02
that um many of us have held for many years we pray that you would guide us into nothing but the truth and keep us from error and help us to recognize error in
1:15
our own thoughts that we might bring them under the light of your word and the light of your spirit and be led into the the true way by your word we pray in
1:25
Jesus name amen so um our conversation tonight is uh touches a nerve will touch a nerve
1:39
um perhaps not anyone here but certainly within modern within modern evangelicalism there's evangelicalism there's a a tendency and has been not just in
1:51
our country not in even just in our country's history this is true this was true for example in Great Britain in the 19th century um it's it's true
2:02
of of uh all religions the mixing of their national identity with their religious identity uh is in many cases in history so common as to not even
2:15
receive comment it's just accepted that if you are a particular uh type of person as far as your nationality you will be a particular type of religion
2:25
and religious wars have often uh followed ethnic and National lines so talking about nationalism talking about militarism also talking about pacifism
2:36
we're going to be touching on something that the modern American church is powerfully impacted by the
2:48
aura of aura of militarism and so we're we're it's a it's a nerve that is very close to the surface of the skin in terms of of
3:01
um who we are as Christians and also as Americans and I didn't get to this last week but I wanted to spend some time talking about the difference between patriotism and nationalism Tim would you
3:12
mind oh it's closing never mind um because these are often confused as synonyms and if it's it's often said that if if you don't agree with
3:25
particular nationalistic um I want to say propaganda but you know philosophy then you're not patriotic and so is there a difference between the two well I think there
3:35
definitely is definitely is patriotism can be defined as one's affinity for the land of one's birth or of one's adopted land particularly if
3:46
that adoption was voluntary although not exclusively because many um who would consider themselves to be American
3:57
Patriots were descended from people who were were brought here either as slaves or as indentured servants many who are in our country and would consider themselves to be Patriots
4:09
uh their Heritage was voluntary but only because the situations in their Homeland were unlivable it was not voluntary in the
4:22
sense that they woke up one morning and say I want to go to America no they woke up one in morning and I don't have any food and I don't have a job uh and my country has just been through a war and
4:33
the economy is terrible and the mafia is overrunning Our Land I'm out of here that was my grandfather he didn't have some you know nostalgic or romantic idea
4:43
of you know the stat I don't even know if the statue he knew the Statue of Liberty was even there I mean Sicily doesn't didn't get you know 247 news broadcasts in broadcasts in 1920 um what was his mindset so many of
4:58
them were fleeing they were not voluntary so can you call them voluntary igr when they really couldn't do otherwise but die so but they come in
5:09
and often that same generation or certainly the Next Generation the the first generation born here are very patriotic so patriotism is
5:30
um I I think it can almost must be said that it is unavoidable that it's natural and I don't even mean that natural to our necessarily to our fallen
6:07
you think of Ruth's comments to Naomi your people shall be my people your God shall be my god um Paul Yuri when your grandfather came here in the 1920s there
6:19
was this Americanization like uh you kind of Shan your past if you're polish or Italian you needed to speak English you changed your name to something that
6:31
sounds more American right but after like let's say after second world war or after the Vietnam War it's been encouraged to keep your language to keep
6:43
your name uh multiculturalism is much more prevalent now than it was 100 years ago much more prevalent yes but not not even Universal
6:54
not even really I would say probably not even the even the majority um it and Milton we we have had the opportunity of teaching the children of immigrants uh Hispanic
7:07
immigrants and I I I remember one year where the one of the students signed up for Spanish class which seemed rather odd considering that's what they spoke
7:18
in the home um and their parents were were from I think Costa Rica or Guatamala was it Guatemala the Guatemala um and his comment was that Mom wants me
7:29
learn the grammar okay so um but my my grandfather they they spoke Italian in the home and even
7:41
80 well 60 years later toward the end of his life his English was very spotty and very thick but my mother had no trouble because the second generation the
7:51
children were to learn English that they had to so there there was an assimilation but even where there isn't an assimilation even where the language of multiculturalism um you know you you you
8:03
look at Great Britain Great Britain is now very uh pluralistic especially with um uh with Indians really people from India and um you know they still have
8:14
their their Customs their religion but they're also very British you know and they're very proud to be British okay and when you use the word pride that obviously that that seems unchristian
8:25
and unbiblical um but I think there are different different forms of Pride uh there's Pride that is dignity and then there's Pride that is um self-absorption and and when we talk
8:39
about the the pride of of dignity the the place in which you were born the nation uh in which you grew up
8:49
Customs that you learned traditions this is all by the hand of Providence it wasn't an accident so providentially you you're born as a particular particular uh ethnicity or a
9:02
particular nationality and and there's there's an element in element in which uh your your affection for that group of humanity is part of the nature
9:15
of humanity um now it goes too far and we see that and we're going get into that um especially next week when we talk about wokeness and critical race Theory and and things like that which are
9:25
really just the modern iteration of of say for example Marxism um or you know there the philosophies really haven't changed they just Chang names and there's a point at which your
9:37
nationality your um pride in your nationality becomes a stumbling block there's no doubt about that that's that's not my point here but I I get the I get the impression in
9:48
Reading Paul's letters that at no point in time did Paul the Apostle the Christian ever regret that he had been born a born a Jew what or was never embarrassed that
10:00
he was a Jew um he made mention of it several times in Romans 9 he says I am telling the truth in Christ I am not lying my conscience bearing witness in the holy spirit that I have great sorrow
10:10
and unceasing grief in my heart for I could wish that I myself were a curse separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren my Kinsmen according to the flesh who are
10:21
Israelites is it not also Father yes and and and above that honor ing God because again that's that's right it is a form of honoring
10:32
one's father and mother it's a form of the honor that's due to those authorities that God has set in place which are in the place of father and mother in a sense in a nationalistic
10:44
sense or a a national sense not natural nationalistic um yeah it it's I I don't think it's something that should be railed against I think it's something just like any virtue this the corrupt
10:57
nature can turn it into a vice but that doesn't make it inherently a vice or inherently sinful and I don't think patriotism is inherently sinful um in
11:07
fact I I don't know that it really can be avoided seems like May that we draw to Jesus telling his disciples he who does
11:18
not hate father mother know and follow me he's not worthy of the Kingdom now is he saying that we shouldn't love our parents no right you know patriotism can be taken
11:31
to the extreme where you're actually rejecting Christ in his kingdom because of your love for your nation but that doesn't mean that loving your nation
11:41
loving your people is apparently bad yeah loving your parents is inherently good in comparison to your love to God through Christ it doesn't compare that's
11:52
what Jesus was making a comparison not an absolute statement because he had also said that not one jot or title of the law should be abolished so he certainly wasn't abolishing one of The
12:04
Commandments himself so U but I I and I think what you described the you know when when your love for Country overwhelms your love for God your
12:15
obedience to Christ frankly I think you've moved from patriotism into nationalism and that's what I know it can be a subtle distinction but it is I believe an important one
12:25
because much of Christian teaching is always either or it just seems like when you when you read the writings of of the different um men of history in terms of
12:36
how we're to live in the world and I'm using the dichotomy tonight of militarism versus pacifism it's always one or the other I don't think it's an either or
12:48
situation uh and we talked last week about the dual citizenship that we possess and each of those Sovereign spheres has its realm of
13:02
sovereignty we don't cease to be citizens of the nations in which we are born when we become Christians but what we do is we become citizens of the
13:12
kingdom of God so we receive a new citizenship but the old one is not abrogated and we see that not so much in Paul's teaching as as as in his own um
13:28
self or autobiographical writings or speeches so for example when he's before agria he he says um you know he's so happy to
13:41
be able to to give his defense before the king especially because you are this is in Acts 26 by the way especially because you are an expert in all customs and questions among the Jews therefore I
13:53
beg you to listen to me patiently so then all the Jews know the manner of my life from my youth up which from the beginning was spent among my own nation and at Jerusalem now remember he he's he's from Tarsus a
14:06
Greek city in in cissa in Asia Minor um but apparent very young age he went to Jerusalem um he says since they have known about
14:17
me for a long time previously if they are willing to testify that I lived as a Pharisee according to the strictest sect of our religion okay and I am now standing trial for the hope of the promise made by God to our fathers I
14:30
mean there's just no place in his writings where Paul um abandons or or denies his Jewish Heritage okay uh and we even see that he
14:45
utilizes his Roman citizenship I don't know that that would be called patriotism in the same sense he has a you you can hear especially in
14:55
Romans 9 you can hear is his a his affection for the people of his land even though he wasn't born there okay he was born a Jew but he was not he he's
15:07
talking about Jerusalem you know that was his homeland even though he was a an adopted citizen of that territory uh though he was definitely a Jew he makes
15:30
social glue and and it is often very popular especially today with the council cancel culture movement but it's it's also something that's been endemic in
15:40
Christianity the kind of a a radical tendency to want to to undo all social norms mores
15:51
norms mores Traditions not realizing that these These are the glues that hold Society together it's not just government imposed that makes a society the
16:02
government is there and God appoints it um because men are sinful but that's not what brought the society together and holds it together we're not held together by laws we're held together by
16:15
Common rituals some that we don't even really call rituals but we do them you know like our Sports sportsing okay we we do these things and and it's kind of
16:26
recognized that we do you know we do certain things we do the World Series we do baseball and we really don't
16:42
Cricket we do what we call football right and with we understand the moving of the goalpost and that's kind of but we don't really understand rugby rugby seems like a legal brawl to us it
16:53
doesn't really uh you know so but if you're British Cricket rugby it's
17:03
part of your tradition um and people people will get excited not maybe not so much anymore I I know when I was younger we got very excited about the
17:15
Olympics even if the sports weren't anything we would pay attention to the rest of the year okay um but then they started adding they added like bad Mitten and this is kind ridiculous shut
17:28
talk like come on curling that was the end for me I couldn't handle it um but how many of you are old enough to remember the Miracle on Ice 1980s Lake
17:39
Placid semi-finals the hockey you know it's like that wasn't just a hockey game that was International politics you know and and so patriotism Fourth of July
17:50
parades fireworks you know the the things that we do as you know as Christians sometimes we want to not do them because we're Christians we don't do those things but I don't see
18:03
that and I can't point to a scripture that says Thou shalt not or Thou shalt have a barbecue on July 4th you know I I I can't see where we're either commanded
18:13
or prohibited from these social rituals but I I think that part of our witness in the
18:24
world is not to be so removed from the world that we're essentially monastic in terms of the culture around us Tim that
18:34
Paul says some like Cate theast new moons and some are to them there scope for those things yeah I think Romans 14 and and galatian I think that's that
18:45
comes into play where you uh some people do these things some people don't and let every man be convinced in his own mind and I'm not I'm not up here saying you should celebrate the 4th of July or
18:56
that you should you know pay pay attention to the World Series especially this month this month um one one team's illustrious career season went down the toilet very quickly
19:09
so I'm not paying attention anymore um you know I'm not suggesting that we we do these thing I'm just saying I don't see any prohibition or any inherent negative to patriotism I think it is
19:21
natural don't you think other way around Christians generally are very no no I think Christians often are very
19:31
nationalistic I I think all Americans are very patriotic but I think Christianity is showing a different side to and have I was speaking specifically
19:44
to yes basball most Christians are really scking to that a lot
19:55
more I I don't know that that's even necessarily true I think that you in terms of the sports everybody's involved in those we we're still into our Sports in terms of the of the
20:09
national holidays perhaps that's waning um I I would say this that fewer and fewer people understand what the ritual is all
20:20
about in okay uh and I think that within Christianity there is still um a a trying to Main main the history of these rituals but what I'm what I'm going to
20:32
try to say tonight is I think that within Evangelical and especially conservative American Christianity it has gone too far it has gone from
20:42
patriotism into patriotism into nationalism okay see patriotism nationalism looks like patriotism that's why I want to make a distinction between the two that they're not the same thing
20:55
because sometimes you can you can be a national and people will say well you're just very patriotic well probably so is that other person but they're not a nationalist okay so I want to I want to
21:18
nationalism patriotism is kind of an internal analysis even analysis even subconscious of your Nation versus all the others
21:36
within itself and so nationalism it's key characteristic no matter where it is and this is not something that is in any way unique to the United States this is
21:46
something that that every country deals with but nationalism's key characteristic is establishing a criteria as to who is is a true
22:00
citizen so whereas patriotism is relative to the other nations I think the United States is a better country than any of the other countries and I
22:11
do nationalism then looks inwards and say I think these people are not true citizens so it defines the nation in a
22:22
limiting manner within itself does that make sense okay so
22:53
itself you know it's not a situation where I'm saying Emmanuel macron is not an American an American citizen no he's French okay that's not I'm saying no these
23:03
people aren't people aren't Americans because they're not they're not they're not natives they're they haven't been here long enough now my grandfather put up
23:14
with this I imagine your family has encountered this from Egypt where the color of your skin that you know maybe you didn't I don't know but certainly um
23:25
certainly up in the Northeast the Irish had this in the 19th century the poles the Italians the slavics and Mediterranean cultures had this in
23:35
Spades through the 20th century and that is you're not really an American okay um there are some places and I know this may be apocryphal but I don't think it is because I've met some
23:46
of them but there are some places in in in New England for example that you're not really a citizen until you're about the 12th or 14th generation living in that town There's a it's an exclusive
23:57
it's it's an exclusive mentality that defines nationalism in in very exclusive and narrow
24:07
terms this is a little bit funny because I never in my life except for once experien this I've always been my family
24:17
came into a a place where I was the only white kid and like the black kids kind of taught me how to be their own but when I was applying for school I I was
24:29
already an American citizen for like six or seven or seven years I put on my application for grad school that my first language is
24:41
Russian and I had uh a meeting with their International counselor and she was confused as to why I was there because I was speaking perfect English
24:51
and that even better than and like you know my my accent whatever I have and still the dean of the school said that I
25:02
have to take that toam what is that the it's like it's what res aliens have to in order to keep their visa okay and you were a
25:15
naturalized US citizen yeah okay so I mean there's an there's but I'm not that might just yeah that might just be bureaucracy um but you know when that goes out into the society and and people
25:29
the their uh the reality of their citizenship is citizenship is judged and it's judged narrowly by their skin color by their Heritage um and
25:41
that's nationalism I just going to say I don't I'm not familiar with anybody that def that supports nationalism in a way that excludes themselves it's never that's yeah
25:59
never it's always you know you're always in the circle when you're defal yeah that's that's a very good point it never excludes itself never excludes your own group it's never it's
26:09
it's always I am and you are not um and and so and again it is not by any means exclusively American okay it's something
26:21
that you will find in every na Nation because it's it's really endemic to Fallen humaness and that is to to to
26:31
click and to exclude so um so nationalism but but the thing about thing about nationalism it's a it's a narrow
26:42
perspective on who constitutes true citizenship but what nationalism does is it will
27:06
story okay because every culture needs a story as as human beings we are as tied to the past as we are the present and so we we will have a story
27:20
that somehow uh justifies our current existence by linking it to the Past uh now nationalism an ancient example would be
27:30
the patricians of Rome you know who could trace their Heritage to the founders of the city and then even beyond that to to the gods okay now now we look at that and think that's just
27:40
nothing but but Superstition and mythology but it it's not any different than my uh grandmother who was a a devout member of the Daughters of the
27:51
American Revolution the DAR now I don't know whether that that organization I'm sure still exists um and you know Lauren okay
28:01
considered yeah and and you know the the idea of tracing your heritage back to the Mayflower okay now I never realized that the Mayflower was actually the Queen Mary it had so many people on it
28:13
um but I thought it was small I actually have seen a replica of it a full size like all these people didn't fit on there but I guess you know they were very fertile you know there was a second one Mayflower 2 Mayflower 3 uh sounds
28:27
like SE um but it's a narrative that we we make that gives ourselves in our own
28:37
minds it gives us a sense of of being a sense of identity but the problem is the narrative is often false it's it's not actually
28:50
true it's our own legend or we're taking history and we're modifying it to to form a narrative that fits our
29:01
current nationalistic and and I can't use a different word agenda okay our own exclusive identity I don't know if you've ever heard about this but in Israel they have
29:14
DNA T that can you back to King DAV oh everybody I would have thought Solomon yes cuz you know my uncle it and apparently related
29:26
to King David oh okay of course you are yeah and I I mean it is three easy payments yes 1995 a
29:53
efford all right this is falling apart but it is true that you know Americans seem to be there there's a there's a segment of American society that's really big on on trying to trace
30:04
our their Heritage back to royalty or nobility and to get a Cod of arms and you can do that there you know online you can get your own Cod of arms um
30:15
and this is what I mean but when it becomes when it when it comes into the the church and we get that um that
30:37
nationalism now again this this was this was rampant in in in England especially but also in Scotland during the 1800s and earlier okay um during the post-reformation era after the English
30:49
Civil War that the idea of a Christian nationalism that the true identity of England was as a Christian Nation uh so this is not unique and and I think it would be um detrimental to our
31:03
understanding the phenomenon to think it's something new because it's also been chronic in our own history where there comes a time when the churches
31:14
especially tend to to rewrite the history of the colonization and then independence of this land in terms of a Christian Destiny and even in terms of
31:26
the prophetic word so in one one of the week's notes we we looked at Romans or Revelation 12 and how the Patriotic preachers of the revolutionary period saw the United well
31:38
not the United States yet but the the the struggles of the British colonies in North America as the topic of Revelation 12 okay and that and Great Britain was
31:51
the dragon who was seeking to devour so that's the rewriting of the narrative but now we're going to add into it a Christian element that that not only indicates that not not only are we the
32:04
true Americans we are the true children of God and again this happened in in Great Britain where they you know there were those who believe that the 10 lost tribes of Israel migrated to the British
32:17
Isles okay no seriously I mean that was that was a very common view in the 19th century that the British people were actually descended from the Lost tribes of of Israel so it's like this is
32:31
not truth it's a it's a new story and so the rewriting of our historical narrative will narrative will adopt um aspects of the surrounding
33:10
this is to the point that if if you speak a word against these phenomenon these uh characteristics these aspects of society two things are immediately
33:21
questioned first your patriotism and second your faith or maybe the other way around okay one of them is in in our culture I'm just going to give the ones that are so prevalent in modern
33:33
americanism obviously I already mentioned this the United States is a
33:54
Nation now if what you mean there is that the Christian religion was the predominant religion predominant religion of the colonies that became the United States well then that's historically accurate but if you what you what you
34:04
mean to say is that the United States was established by God as a uniquely Christian place that's never been true to history okay not not the least true
34:16
to most of our founding fathers in terms of Evangelical of Evangelical Christianity you know if you if you mean that we were not founded on
34:27
on Islamic principles well yeah okay or bah you know no we we weren't it was Protestant Christianity but it was not Evangelical
34:40
it was it was not in in many cases actually true Christianity but what's meant here is again the bringing of the United States United States into the the the U the story of
34:55
redemption so so how how many of you have have heard a sermon preached on the on the eagle and I will not remember the chapter of chapter of Isaiah um 55 maybe but anyhow a a land
35:11
divided by water or something and its symbol is the eagle well that's the United States we're divided by the Mississippi
35:22
River and our our national bird is the bald eagle okay well forget the fact that the eagle has been the symbol of probably 2third of the nations of
35:33
History because it's simply a cool bird I just imagine how Bren Franklin by choosing the turkey would have taken us completely out of biblical prophecy I don't know what passage you'd
35:45
go to for the turkey seems like Mormons are really into that and they're finding America in a lot of places including Genesis 49
35:55
yeah well I won't I don't know yeah the Mormons but they they also have their agenda too um by their own vse theology um yeah they they have their agenda too
36:07
but again um I have no doubt that Mormons are patriotic their form of nationalism though is going to be different than what we see in Evangelical churches so America as a
36:17
Christian Nation that's that's one of the key um markers of Christian nationalism but but also the idea of of
36:36
Cold War knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that communism was a Godless society and that all Communists were Godless people and that they were
36:47
anti-christian okay and and this was um this was echoed in all the churches liberal and conservative during the Cold War and in your notes this week I I I
36:57
found I stumbled on something that kind of shows the problem here that I'm trying to to get at in terms of our dual citizenship Christianity citizenship Christianity Today magazine that was established in
37:09
the mid-50s by Billy Graham and it was established with the self-conscious purpose of keeping the Christian people
37:20
Christian people informed of the evils of demonic communism now 1950s were also the time of Joseph of Joseph McCarthy okay and of the blacklists and
37:31
and just the Red Scare that particular version of the Red Scare so here comes Christianity Today now you wouldn't know that if you read Christianity Today today okay because Christianity Today is
37:45
liberal woke okay culturally relevant and I am sure Billy Graham and and Carl Henry are just spinning in their graves every time a new issue comes out um but but back
37:57
then it was Hardcore nationalism and and you know I think okay then I I stumbled upon one of the letters to the editor one of the
38:07
oped pieces this is a Christian magazine this OP ED was contributed by Jay Edgar Hoover who at that time had been the
38:18
director of the FBI for 40 years and no one accused him of being an Evangelical Christian no one but he was a communist fighter and so
38:29
he's front billing on in Christianity see that's where our sovereignties are getting mixed that's where our messages are getting mixed and I actually have some excerpts in the notes from Hoover's
38:41
editorial and it's amazing because what the title of his oped piece was the Faith of Our Fathers this is It's amazing to read it
38:52
but then to think that this was published in Billy Grahams magazine under the editorship of Carl Henry who was himself a very renowned Evangelical
39:09
Theologian I don't question either Billy Graham or Carl Henry's Christianity it's just an example of how the church gets so close to the state that it becomes the defender of
39:22
the status the status quo it becomes the defender of the state interest now at that point and this is the kind of the overall theme of of the
39:32
lesson um last week this week at that point we're no longer building a temple we're building the tower and and I to me that's a very
39:43
helpful understanding of what God is doing versus what man is doing in human history and if you think the tower was only Genesis
39:53
only Genesis 11 then you don't understand the the human ambition okay we're going to talk a little bit about that tonight so what we're dealing with here is what are
40:11
we what are we building okay because if we're not building what God's Building then we're building something against God and and I think Paul makes it very clear in clear in Ephesians when he he he starts out in
40:24
Chapter 2 with that famous passage that we are saved by grace through faith and not of works you know so that you know that's where a lot of people go in Ephesians chapter 2 but then he goes on
40:37
in that same passage he says you know therefore you the Gentiles In the Flesh okay you were at that time separate from Christ excluded from the Commonwealth of
40:48
Israel strangers to the Covenant of Promise having no hope and without God in the world now we'll talk more about that Lord willing next week but that that was the condition of the Gentiles
41:00
before the Advent of Christ and before his resurrection and Ascension they were without god without hope okay and that is the context of all tower building
41:12
throughout human history we will make ourselves a name for ourselves so then he goes on he says in Christ you who are far off have been brought near he is our
41:22
peace who made both groups into one then verse 19 so then you are no longer strangers and Aliens but you are fellow citizens with the Saints and are of God's household and here's it goes to
41:34
this metaphor again having been built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets Christ Jesus himself being the Cornerstone in whom the whole building being fitted together is growing into a
41:46
holy Temple in the Lord in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the spirit that's what God's
42:00
but throughout church history and all too often the church was on the wrong job site it was over across the fence building the
42:10
building the tower and not the temple so when when we Ally ourselves with the
42:24
the tower but again does that mean monasticism see that again it's that either or either I'm I'm I rolled up my sleeves and I'm in the world and I'm
42:35
working for Christ in the world or I'm out of the world I don't have anything to do with the world and in terms of militarism it's either that
42:46
I'm I'm gung-ho for the military and and my country writer wrong and no matter who we support as long as it was against communism it was the right thing to
42:57
do or we're pacifists and we're conscientious objectors and we won't lift up a finger to fight for our country for any reason see those would have been the the the standard responses
43:09
or one or the other but I think those responses fail to understand the dual citizenship that we hold and that's what I'm trying to bring out this evening and
43:19
I I I have no doubt that I will not do it fully it it's it's really a very broad concept and going
43:30
back to a lesson a few a few weeks ago the end of constantinian ism the end of the constantinian settlement the time in which we now
43:43
live where I think we should all be able to recognize the church no longer has the influence in the public sector that it once had and we'll probably never
43:55
have it again again but do we recognize what a wonderful opportunity that is because we never should have had it to begin with that it never
44:08
led to the upbuilding and the edification of the temple but only ever led to the church participating in the tower building of the world and so many
44:21
of the religious wars the the Reformation if you if you just read it in in line if you read for example the history of Roman Catholicism and especially the
44:33
especially the papacy going on into the Middle Ages and the high Middle Ages before the Reformation you can see this is nothing but tower but tower building but then look at Henry
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VII or even Elizabeth the were they building the Temple no they were building the tower of England is what they were building
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independent of the Tower Tower of Rome maybe but not the Tower of God not the temple of God I mean okay and so to me it's it's one of those um
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dichotomies that helps to kind of slice through history and even the present and kind of reveal what building project
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we're actually involved actually involved in so here's a couple of them capitalism uh another one is democracy okay and I mentioned in Sunday school
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last week that that it seems to me and I think everybody agreed that if it is true then it is true everywhere and if it's not true
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everywhere is not true okay but throughout the Cold War and then of course in the 19 early 1990s with the Soviet Union collapsing that kind of um
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verified or validated the concept that democracy is the Christian form of government well hopefully next week and I've said this before in in a sermon I
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remember and frankly I don't remember many of the ones I no that you know I don't some of you may remember me saying this that the
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greatest danger to Freedom is Liberty because when you have freedom where do you stop it democracy was not something the framers of the
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Constitution wanted none of them wanted democracy okay but we think democracy we want to export it because it gives Freedom okay uh yeah freedom to be a
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pervert you know freedom to be a law breaker now okay so um in different parts of the country freedom to so is freedom that
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kind of Freedom political freedom is that necessarily Christian and if it is what about Christians who are in non-democratic countries or are there any can there be any Christians in a
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totalitarian dictatorship well most certainly can there be Christians who are not are not capitalists well yes because Christianity essentially has nothing to
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do with your political or economic system it has to do with your faith in Christ that anybody disagree with
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that Cesar household yes members of Caesar's household who were Christian AB just thinking for me
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support others doesn't make me a nationalist in the S you're talk makes me that is what I believe to be a better system right better thing yeah and I'm not I'm not disagreeing with that it's
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from that discussion where I say to myself well I should not be democracy anymore because that's not I'm Christian oh no no no you're mishearing me and I I
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keep trying to say this when I say one thing do not interpret that I'm saying the opposite and I disagree with one thing I'm not necessarily advocating the opposite what I am saying is democracy
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is not of the essence of Christianity capitalism is not of the essence of Christianity within Christian National ISM however it
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is so all you're saying is you're not a Christian nationalist fine but in Christian nationalism in their writings in their editorials in their
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sermons and you can read the sermons especially through the Cold War these things are things are essential Billy Graham preaching at a
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crusade in I think Iowa back in 1962 I had have it in the notes he B and he's not the only one who's ever said this because it's been said time and
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time again that if if communism succeeds Christianity will be destroyed that's that's what I'm trying to say is that Christian nationalism
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links the fate of Christ Church to political military social military social now but the Christian suffer the commun
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it's not going to destroy it but it will suffer people will that we're not but we're not guaranteed okay yes do that mean that we must well I I you have to
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let me move a little bit further because I I am I am very Pro capitalism I do think democracy is a far nicer system to live in than anything
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I've heard of in terms of Communism I'm trying to talk about the dual citizenship that we have we happen to be blessed I think to live in the United States now maybe that's just my
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patriotism talking okay but we have tremendous freedoms and prosperity longevity literacy things that many nations in the world don't have and very few nations in history
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have had even remotely to the level that we have it here would I exchange it well probably not without a fight because I'm not a
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pacifist was the government wrong in its policy of containment during the Cold War no I don't think it was wrong but that was the role and responsibility of
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the government what I'm trying to say is when the church allies itself and joins itself with the government then it is not doing what its responsibility calls it to do it is
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doing what the government's responsibility calls it to do now as a Believer I am responsible first to God but that does not abrogate my
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responsibility to the government unless the government orders me to do something that violates the command of command of God okay first have
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again but seems like if we're thinking critically and hopefully biblically then we see that each of those things that you listed up there is an omelet that you can't get without cracking eggs
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America as a Christian Nation well that's going to require the suppressing of people who are not Christian capitalism to have capitalism requires a free reign for oppressors and the rich
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things that are unbiblical but the Christian nationalists and many Evangelical Americans who identify Christians Europe
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Christians Europe um refuse to see that they must sanctify each of each of in it entirety they cannot take the position that capitalism is communism
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they must say entir good he this is the here sanctifies okay it it first of all the
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United States first it's not a it was not founded as a Christian Nation but I would much rather to have Christian principles and even if they're not all Christianity I would rather have
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that than that than sharah okay you know I would rather have uh biblical than than sharah law which is that's redundant so I'm not I'm not
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saying that you know I don't want any acknowledgement I don't want prayer in school I don't want no I'm not saying that what I'm saying is that these things are things are providential these things are in some
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respects better than their Alternatives okay and this one is definitely better than than communism this one's definitely better than
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totalitarianism all right yeah they're better but they're not Sanctified they're not of the essence of Christianity and so when the church
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stands to defend them the church is sanctifying them and making them part of what they consider to be biblical Christianity Justin don't maybe I'm
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being a little too forcing I feel like I don't understand how the church from the Christian nationalist perspective functions without becoming sacr
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realistic that that they become one and and just assumed again we're back to assuming that because you are part of the nation you're Christian right or whatever it may be that the idea of a
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Christian Prince like they're just they're the head of the church and they're also the the leue government I mean even even through history I mean it's allowed you know great example
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Fritz literally put in a hole in the tower a couple rules away from Luther and died in the hole and Luther allowed it to happen because he didn't want to
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bapti children because that that that whole concept of not baptizing your children was was opposed by the reformers the magisterial reformers because it would
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have been destroy the social fabric of their cities of their towns they were sistic okay and sacralizing is what happens when we unite our thinking with
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that of any aspect of the world the the fact that we live in the the various paradigms that describe Western Civilization is a providential
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reality but what I'm trying to say is it is essentially a non-player in terms both of our faith and the purpose of the
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church in the world and in fact it actually can be more of a negative than a positive that when the church has been
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in opposition and in persecution it has often thrived whereas when it has been in Alliance it has often
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apostatized and that's just historical so and then the one and you know I'm I'm starting to raise hackles already and I knew this would happen but this this one
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is the one that I F I personally find the most difficult and that is militarism and I and again if if you don't agree uh just uh that's fine um but I do think that throughout the
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history of this country as well as Great Britain the conservative church has almost always United itself
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with the militaristic aspect of the Society of the government being vehemently in
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support of not only the military establishment but establishment but also military also military operations that on the face of it had
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the most tenuous hold on National Security now it was done during the Cold War to contain Comm communism but but the man who is
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credited with credited with um with that theory with that that policy was George Kennan George Kennan was a presbyterian and a fairly
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practicing one I don't know whether George Kenan was a Believer George Kennan lived to be about I think 102 so he saw the Soviet Union
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Fall um and on numerous occasions in his autobiog graphy his own writings and in interviews he
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interviews he lamented how his Long Telegram from Moscow was interpreted and then applied he had no intention of the militarism that resulted from that
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telegram if you read that Telegram and I highly recommend it if you read that telegram you basically hear George Kennan who had been an ambassador or in the in the embassy I don't think he was
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actually ambassador because the Russians didn't like him but he was in the embassy in Moscow on and off through the war and then afterward and he was basically writing back to the state
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department saying the seeds of its destruction are already swn within communism and within the Soviet system what the United States needs to
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do is buy its time well that was interpreted as containment because he did say we needed to support non-communist governments
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whenever we could well that was militarized by the Truman Administration then again by Eisenhower and then off to the races okay with the military-industrial complex we started
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arming and we started getting involved in areas for no other reason than to keep either the Russians or the Chinese out we also supported
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governments uh that were known to be at the time um brutal dictatorships but it was necessary in our mind it was necessary to the
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containment of Communism so that the Free World would not be overrun with that totalitarian dictatorship looking back on that it's whether that was right or wrong is like looking at hoshima and
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Nagasaki and and asking was it right or wrong it was a decision made at the time by the powers who were ordained by God to make that
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decision to do and and end in a certain way and of course it ended the war so you know looking back on it they could say we were successful the Soviet Union fell so looking back on it we could say
59:05
containment was successful but when you look into it you realize there's not a whole lot that was done or said that jives with Biblical
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Christianity I'm just thinking don't you think that there never be for Christian Church
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side only local assemblies here and there as
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the church in the in the more Universal sense has ever not cided yeah and I don't think that will ever sadly I don't think that will ever happen um and I you
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you know how I feel about the local church I I where I think we are to show ourselves faithful absolutely um and so
