0:20
Fellowship in that list in Acts chapter 2 which which I've said I don't believe exhaustive and I do I do somewhat believe that the first two devoting themselves to the apostles teaching and
0:33
fellowship are really the the twin pillars of the Christian congregation and the the whole U Paradigm the whole phenomenon of congregational worship
0:45
that it must be founded and continually nourished by the Bible by the apostles teaching which is the full counsel of God as Paul mentions to the Ephesian
0:56
Elders in Acts 20 and also those things that come after after the breaking of bread prayer and then we can we can add to that the singing of hymns and Psalms
1:06
and spiritual songs I do believe these are all elements of of Fellowship um that these are all things that were done and are to be done corporately as a United body of
1:19
Believers so um we're not going to simply just touch on fellowship and coia and then go on to the others as if they're her hermetically sealed from each other and you know you check come
1:30
off the Box okay do we have Apostles teaching good do we have quinia good you know then we move on no it's it's the environment in which all of the others uh occur and I've I've mentioned this
1:42
verse many times chapter 14 of 1 Corinthians verse Corinthians verse 26 where Paul says what is the outcome then bre then bre Brethren when you
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assemble each one has a Psalm has a teaching has a Revelation has a tongue has an has an interpretation let all things be done
2:08
for edification what is the outcome then now this verse comes toward the end of a
2:18
chapter Treatise on what I would call the work of the holy spirit in the local body so when he comes to this verse
2:38
this this statement what is the outcome then is is very um it's a summation of really of all that I've said about the the gifts the charismata uh about the the we might
2:51
call the unique or special gifts of Apostles and Prophets evangelists uh but then every gift that is distributed by the Holy Spirit to each believer as the Holy Spirit Wills
3:05
obviously love chapter 13 that's that's part of this um and so he he talks about obviously in in the Church of Corinth there was an issue with the the speaking
3:17
of tongues without interpretation um clearly there was a level of of competition in the church we we get that from the very beginning there are factions among you um and that
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he starts out the very letter dealing with these um factions it it's kind of like the you know they're going for the uh the house cup you know the house of Gryffindor is is Apollos the house of
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Paul the house of sephus you know and Paul's saying 10 points from all of you um because because of your factions but that it's it's kind of that idea that within the church within the one Church
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there are little camps um so these are all uh issues that Paul is dealing with in this letter and he kind of sums it up here in this verse what is the outcome
4:04
then so what I want to first start out with is a discussion that we had a long time ago uh or or things that we've looked at when we look at the book of
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Acts we read in the book of Acts how the early church behaved what they did and the the question when you're reading a
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historical narrative like that is whether or not what you're reading is merely historical or whether it's prescriptive and it it's not always
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prescriptive it's not always what this you must do this sometimes it it has to do with showing the heart and the spirit of the
4:49
congregation and not necessarily foot washing is one of these things do we do we continue to physically wash one another's feet or do we continue to uh
5:00
inculcate the servant attitude that in that culture was manifested by in the lowest form by washing the guest's
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feet selling your possessions and laying the money at the feet of the Apostles do we still do we still do that is that normative so the question is are we
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are we dealing with something that just is Paul trying to sort things out and settle things down in Corinth or are we dealing with something that he intended to be Universal within the Christian churches
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um of of all places and all times Well we can answer the question very quickly uh as to whether it was just Corinth because we can move down to
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um verse 33 I'm yeah verse 33 for God is not a god of confusion but of Peace as in all the churches of the Saints okay so we can at least conclude that
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whatever Paul is advocating for Corinth he wants the same for Ephesus and he wants the same for Philippi and thessalonica and Rome and all the other
6:44
churches and I think that if we accept the inspiration of scripture which we do then we need to conclude that what he wants for Corinth he wants for the
6:55
churches All Through the Ages so that the question is then what what does this mean what he says in in verse 26 another reason I think that it is
7:07
prescriptive and not historical is that the focus of his teaching has not been so much the um problems with the Corinthian
7:20
Church but what he is teaching is the the vital work of the Holy Spirit within the church
7:30
the church I can't see where he was limiting that to the first century in Corinth okay so when he says earlier that the Holy Spirit distributes to each as he
7:40
as he Wills those gifts that are needed for the building up of the body he's simply saying the same thing he says in Ephesians chapter 4 where every joint and ligament is bound together to
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provide the building up of the body into one man so this this idea that he is uh um we
8:27
we that right there is Paul's ecclesiology in one sentence this is how Paul views the Church of Jesus Christ on the Earth but if you look at verse 26
8:38
again what is the outcome then when you assemble each one has a Psalm has a teaching has a revelation has a tongue
8:50
has an interpretation has anybody actually been in a service like that
9:05
well I have yeah okay yeah that's fairly typical for a charismatic assembly and actually the the word that I would use to describe it is
9:16
chaos except then God or Paul tells us just a few verses later that he's not a god of god of confusion okay so he's certainly not
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advocating um anarchic him when Christians gather what he says about tongues and and uh
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and uh prophesying and limiting it to basically two or three and giving preference to one another if another has a prophecy the first should sit down what he's doing there is he's inculcating
9:50
order to the the Liturgy of Corinth I think it's important to notice that in no place does Paul absolutely
10:01
forbid anything that the Corinthians are doing in terms of their worship now he does forbid some other things that they're doing because that's because they're sin okay that other things is
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just not good um but what they're doing in terms of tongues in terms of the the charismata he never forbids the speaking of tongues he simply says if there is no
10:24
interpretation you need to keep your mouth shut because as we've already read let all all things be done for edification but the church is clearly I
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think historically moved massively away from the concept of verse
10:50
sport right very little required from the individual members of a church except to put something in the plate when it passes
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by right I how how often have you been taught as a believer that you're actually to come to the assembly with a hymn with a Psalm with a
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this what does it look like have you given any thought what does every member me Ministry actually look like now what we're told and and I've
11:35
read this multiple times is that applies to what individual believers do when you leave church you go out into the world and you evangelize and you tell people
11:45
about Christ and this is what you do in your home for example but is that what Paul says does he say when you leave each one takes the psalm and take no when you
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assemble each one has a Psalm a revelation a tongue an tongue an interpretation so that is actually subu
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that has been perpetrated by the church on its members to say no this is not what you don't really have a role here your role is out there
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okay that's not what he's saying what he's saying is every believer has a role
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like right but he's not removing it because he's already taught about the Holy Spirit giving gifts severally as he Wills so I think that's a good point and I you know it ties on to what I was saying about
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how he's trying he is trying to Corral he's trying to Coral the Corinthians into order okay and edification but he's he's not denying
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letter that the Corinthians were very uh competitive and personally very proud and much of what they did was to draw attention to themselves uh now
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maybe I'm interpreting that because of my experience in the charismatic movement but that was something that that I saw I don't know Justin if your experience was the same but I felt like
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there was a tremendous amount of pride and look at me and look at my gifts time
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right C that's right you you were certainly not in uh so there's a hierarchy uh There Are Spiritual and carnal Christians um there is a intense pressure to conform
15:40
whipping into a frenzy I think is a good way of putting it and with that there were always the whippers and the whippers were the the lead uh men and women they were the
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admired and they liked being admired uh many of them in in our circumstances uh many of them eventually uh fell uh in some pretty egregious sins um so I I
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think Corinth had a lot of problems but I do think in the in that um it is very significant that Paul does not put the kabash on what they're
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doing he he cannot do that because that would be for him that would be to deny the ministry of the Holy Spirit within the congregation everything that God does
16:29
man can man can pervert but that doesn't mean that we just do away with God what God has ordained so that it not be perverted and I think that the church over the
16:40
centuries over the Millennia has been guilty of quenching the holy spirit because we're afraid of what it's going to look like if we don't add to that keep
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yes a good thing that needs to be controlled um and and maybe it was too much of a good thing in Corinth uh but because you don't really hear this you know what what Paul writes in Ephesians 4 is essentially the same thing but it's
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done in a much more sedate and even in intellectual manner than it is in Corinth because apparently the the Believers at at Ephesus were not quite so exuberant as those in
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Corinth so what what does this look like um there are you know if you've been in my classes you know how I like um somebody has her hand up oh I'm sorry
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you're you were blend right into your your shirt go ahead I was thinking this
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that's not prescri no what's prescriptive there is let all things be done for edification yes that's a good point
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yeah that's the question yeah I think it is now I don't think because of what he says afterwards that that when he says each one he means each one at every
18:45
assembly I think what he's saying here is again what he's saying in Ephesians 4 that the body is built up by what each joint and ligament
18:56
provides okay now now so I I first of all I don't think it means that at every assembly everybody said something because he then limits immediately how
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many should many should speak okay so I I I think that what we're what I'm trying to focus on and what's prescriptive here so let's look at that okay what
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prescriptive In this passage well I I think clearly edification that that's that I think there's no there should be no argument
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that what he's trying to get at in this entire letter is what you ought to be doing is what's best for the body and not for yourself now that ties into Philippians 2 which where we've been
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okay that let Let each consider others more important than themselves have this attitude which was in Christ Jesus so he's he's he's very consistent the same
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thing in Ephesians 4 that there there is one body there is one Spirit there is one baptism but there are gifts there are Apostles and evangelists and Prophets and Pastor teachers whose role
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is to equip the body for the building up of the ministry okay that that the the pastors the elders are responsible for equipping the
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Believers that the Believers as joints and ligaments provide what is needed for the building up of the body into one man there's that Unity so Paul's very
20:35
consistent in his letters even though the circumstances of each one are unique in in Philippi he had no problems even in Ephesus the problems he had were with
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the Romans with the pagans not with the Believers Rome he hadn't even been there but we're going to see in Romans 12 that it's all about the gifts okay and and
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the body and then Romans 14 it's all about one another it's not about yourself so there's that consistency in his letters driving for the unity of the
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body in the bond of Peace the unity of the spirit in the bond of Peace but it means not me but y'all okay
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so edification I think is is an undeniable prescriptive element in verse 26 I think the other uh prescriptive is
21:40
Ministry yes yeah I don't think I I think the idea that Believers are now supposed to go out of the church and do their Ministry through par Church organizations and missionary
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boards I don't see that in Paul at all in fact I think that's actually destructive of the witness of God through the Church of Jesus Christ it is
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atomizing and it it takes the fellowship out from under the teaching of the Apostles and puts it into non-church organizations because frankly the church
22:13
doesn't want to be bothered with it and that's what's happened in the church and I don't think it's worked I I would I would challenge anybody to show me where it has worked for even two generations
22:40
send them out send them out go into all the world the world yeah to be children in their thinking right and they are remain children in their thinking and it's actually taught that an evangelist does not need to have
22:53
a a lot of theology they just need to know the simple gospel that's that's it so don't don't confuse the issue with theology I mean the whole phenomenon I
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mean I guess I ask the question is the church this is kind of a weird way of putting it but as you look around in the world today is the church
23:15
working and I don't mean is it working is it doing something I mean is it working like is it actually fulfilling the purpose for which it is here on this planet that purpose seems to be deated
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chur okay well I think that's a pretty good definition since it's the one Paul gives you know this is this is actually what we're talking about is is is kind of very radical it's very
23:50
countercultural but sadly the culture that we're counter to is Christianity is is the modern ecclesiastic model of a clergy driven
24:07
oriented Factory where we supposedly send good citizens out into the world that's not the life of God in the
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midst of the human race it's not a city set on a hill it's not salt and light and it's not really any different than what the world provides in its own
24:29
organizations and organizations and institutions I'm I'm of the opinion that the church like Israel is intended to be visibly and manifestly
24:42
different and I think that Paul's teachings on teachings on coia lie at the very heart of that difference with the world that unlike
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the organizations and Social Clubs of the world that are all brought together by some particular preference or preference or hobby we're not we're a hodg Podge I I
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always those of you who remember uh Rudolph the Red-nose Reindeer I always refer to our church as the Island of Misfit Toys
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right that's that's a good yeah and and actually that's that's very insightful um because I when I look at the church especially in our country there's a tremendous amount of hatred and vital that flows out of the church uh toward
25:44
the world um and toward the world's sins that really is is very much counter productive uh and and not at all um keeping with even John
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right right so what we have then as I said you know you know I like my my spectrums okay on on the one side you have what's called high
26:28
Church um typically High Church is represented by a very distinct clergy Le split and then the clergy itself is uh is marked off with vestments and lurgical
26:41
actions that are supposed to generate reverence and an atmosphere of awe where the clergy is actually um putting itself
26:52
in the place of God not so much in pronouncing but in in practice that's supposed to inculcate kind of an odd silence among the congregants as if
27:05
they're in the presence of the throne room of God as they watch the clergy do church so the highest type of church is
27:15
the lowest type of member ministry right but then on the other side you have um what what I call the
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Brethren and and this is the anabaptist model not entirely some were different uh but the menites were like this the Hutterites um and and that's the
27:36
Moravian Brethren and today some uh up in to more toward the North in the Upper Midwest there there are still Brethren United brethren in Christ where no one
27:48
is the leader there is no Pastor um but whenever they assemble someone has a teaching uh they they take this verse very
27:58
seriously however they they do limit it entirely to entirely to men okay so this question every member
28:29
verse 34 it's interesting that a woman would mention that sorry uh I couldn't all right listen yall yall know my opinion on
28:40
verse 34 and verse 35 uh I I'll say that the and I have it down in my notes that you can't get past it I I understand that I I don't I do
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not believe that Paul wrote that I know that makes people nervous um I'm not the only one and there is manuscript discrepancy concerning the verse um but
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at the very most if you left it in its context what it says is that women are not to pass judgment on Prophecy that's the context to use that
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to prevent women women from praying I think is to violate earlier um passage in 1 Corinthians 11 where I think clearly women are praying whether
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they're doing it with their head covered or whether they're doing it with their head uncovered is the issue but not whether or not they're praying we also know that women do as in that passage prophesy so if a woman prays or
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prophesies now again it's argued well that's not in the assembly uh that's special pleading because everything Paul's talking about is in the assembly starting in chapter
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10 when he's talking about communion and the union of the body in the in the blood and the and the and the Flesh of Christ the wine and the bread is about
29:56
quinia okay to to all of a sudden switch and talk about women praying in their own homes head covered or uncovered is special special pleading you already have your conclusion and you're going to
30:07
make the passage say what you want I understand that it's it's a very sensitive issue but keep in mind that historically the relationship between men and women has always been
30:18
very sensitive not just in Christianity but in Judaism and in in the Greek culture in the Roman culture and in the British culture and whether women should have a voice in politics or should be
30:30
allowed to allowed to vote that was part of the curse you the relationship between men and women and women is no longer that of unity and help and assistance it's
30:43
competitive and it's antagonistic and the fact is there are uh there is a desire at times within women to usurp the rightful authority of
30:53
their husbands there's also the same illegitimate desire among on men to put down women and deny them their identity before God so it it it's a big
31:05
issue as to verse 34 and 35 I don't personally think that they are authentic okay uh again I understand that whenever I say that someone's
31:16
thinking I don't believe in the Bible I don't believe in the inherency of the Bible that's a whole that's a whole different discussion um I hope you know that I do believe in the inherency of
31:26
scripture I do believe that it is authoritative and solely authoritative but I also think that what we have are manuscripts and we know that they don't
31:39
all say the same thing they don't all contain the same verses and we have to be uh in a sense we have to be uh wise um but do you believe that that
31:51
means that women are not part of this joints and ligaments is does verse 34 and 35 say that that really only
32:04
really only men are gifted by the Holy Spirit and responsible for contributing to the building up of the body I think
32:36
singing singing wom women sing oh well we don't do solos I mean we used to but that's um yeah women women sing along
32:47
with men with men right there's no segregation and is is not singing a part of the worship I I think it's part of prayer personally but we we'll get into that um
33:00
act actually act actually the the only thing that that women in our congregation are not allowed to do most of the men are not allowed to do it
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the scripture let me let me correct myself we don't have women reading the scripture that is not a fundamental principle to me to me
33:30
to me personally that's more of a pastoral a pastoral decision not to upset the traditional uh positions of the
33:41
congregants too congregants too rapidly if I live long enough I hope to upset everyone's apple
33:52
cart I just can't see it folks I really can't if if you limit the the cont contribution of baptized Spirit-filled Believers on the basis of
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their age or sex then I think you've destroyed what Paul says that in Christ there is neither male nor female and I think you're taking a
34:14
responsibility away from a child a daughter of daughter of God whom God has set in the body as a joint and the ligament but as you can see I do not
34:27
think that every one of us has the responsibility to responsibility to Pastor there is still the pastor teacher and while Paul Advocates every
34:38
member Ministry all through his letters he also establishes elders and deacons within all of the congregations right and he establishes a body of men
34:50
and I do believe it is men and I think I can support that who will actually stand before God before God as to their equipping of the Saints for
35:01
the work of ministry which is their function but also their protecting the flock against wolves which Acts chapter 20 is their function as Shepherds
35:12
guiding the Sheep into to good pasture and feeding the Sheep but not just so the Sheep get fat it's a it's a different flock than
35:23
that it's so that the Sheep ministered to the to the sheep and I just cannot I know we went through obviously what has that now been two years I mean we went through a
35:33
little bit of Hell over that issue didn't we and a great deal of turmoil and a great deal of vitriol and anger and even a fairly um
35:46
aggressive attempt to divide the body um but I will say that I I I would have to be shown from scripture in a whole lot
35:56
clearer than I and and I think I think I've probably read as much as anyone on the role of men and women in the church and all I ever hear is tradition
36:06
tradition social traditions bigotry Prejudice and Prejudice and misogyny and when I read Paul I don't hear any of that so go ahead
36:28
ex but it's but I would AR that it's not so clear um if it's as clear if it's as clear as it seems and he contradicts himself which Calvin actually admits and amazingly in his commentary when he gets
36:39
to verse 34 and 35 his argument is that the Corinthians weren't ready for what Paul had to say back in chapter 11 but he gives it to him now in chapter
36:51
3 chapter 14 this is actually what Calvin says is that over in chapter 11 he's much more agreeable and women are allowed to pray and prophesy he doesn't say this is in their homes he says this
37:03
is in church but that's not what he really wants to say but they're not ready for it yet three chapters later they're ready I don't know how that happens but three chapters later they're ready for it he lowers the boom and says
37:13
keep your mouth shut I just that goes against everything Paul says and everything Paul doesn't say concerning the role of women and
37:24
even the role of women that Paul acknowledges Priscilla Phoebe I mean the scriptures the New Testament acknowledges so much
37:34
contribution within the Church of women that with the manuscript evidence that that those two verses are not they're not in the same place in our
37:45
manuscripts they move around and they actually are almost verba them from a popular secular
37:56
quote I think it's a marginal entry but even so if it's clear if you take it the way it says it then the context demands that it has to do with the Judgment that is pronounced on Prophecy within the
38:07
body the judge it's not talking about prayer so I don't think it's as clear that's okay I understand we we have dis disagreements there but I think the
38:17
bigger picture is is this really what Paul wants the women to be in the assembly is he really saying you each have a hymn you each have a Psalm but not the women and not the children Abe
38:29
and then Martha and will don't think we live our
38:41
CHR that's what I'm trying to say is even if
38:53
you some people think that yeah some people do think that those two verses are directed he's just telling the Corinthian women could you please shut up okay but but as I said I said that the problem you're faced with there is that goes diametrically opposed to what
39:05
he said three chapters earlier and that's what bothers me is that we can just say Paul changed his mind in three chapters over here he tells the women when you pray when you
39:17
prophesy your head should be covered now we don't really know what that means and frankly if y'all women want to wear head cover I don't have a problem with that I never have
39:28
never have okay um but don't don't tell me in chapter 11 they're not praying and prophesying besides prophesying is not a
39:38
private thing anyhow he makes it very clear that prophesying is a corporate function you don't go into your closet and prophesy like you can with prayer and so
39:49
it's it's it's a it's a nonstarter that that chapter 11 is not corporate and I think it's a non-starter that the women aren't praying in prophesying and Paul is allowing it there and then forbids it
40:00
in chapter 14 I think that's not the right hermeneutic I think that's a convenient hermeneutic for misogyny I think this church has
41:10
experienc it wasn't just women men women it was not for edification uh actually that's how I view Sunday school and to your comment that they didn't have Sun Sunday school I don't think they called it Sunday school that they I think they most certainly had what we
41:22
have here I think they had it in their homes in larger settings I think they had it when they assembled um I don't think they they just came and heard a
41:32
sermon i i as we get to what is this look like one of the things I think this looks like is is a serious reappraisal of what what we're doing here and on Thursday nights and maybe at other times
41:44
I do think there needs to be a sermon I think that's where Mark and I try to go to the scriptures and equip the Believers and to ground them in sound
41:55
Doctrine that's that's our responsib ability and whether they did sermons back then we do know they devoted themselves to the apostles teaching and we know in Corinth that they liked apos
42:06
Apollos better than Paul okay so there was something about those men that set them apart which I do think as Paul says they were watering or they were setting
42:16
the foundation or planting the seed and others were watering there is that role of Pastor of Pastor teacher but there has to be a forum for iron sharpening iron and for every M to
42:28
contribute and maybe not just in in theological discussion but in mutual edification and in building up the body
42:38
um I got to I got to quit for the sake of time of time but this only works if every member comes
42:50
prepared the idea that you can see this is what Martha is talking about and we're the only ones that experience that theas called sharing time what you had was pulled
43:01
was pulled ignorance the reality was nobody in the congregation had thought of the verse until that Sunday morning when the when the preacher got up and said we're going to be in Romans 12 then everybody
43:12
thought of the verse and afterwards they said you know they shared what it meant to them no that that is that is not that would be more like Corinth you know just spouting your mouth off uh no if if this
43:24
works it works because every single believer sees thems as a joint or a ligament not as a head to receive honor but rather as a part of the body to
43:37
provide what the whole body needs for its growth in Grace and unity that's what it's all about that's coinonia but you've got to come prepared you've got to be in the word
43:49
you've got to be in prayer and you've also have have the expectation on yourself that you are contributing now that does again that doesn't mean that every single Sunday you have
44:00
something to say but it was does mean is when you have something to say it comes from a heart of discipleship it comes from a heart of
44:12
meditation on God's word it comes from a heart of concern for the unity and the building up of the body Aon exting you're
44:50
hbes contendent of one another right and I think what you're were saying about the husband and the wife that was Mark and my conclusion concerning the the application of the head covering is that
45:01
the determination as to whether or not a woman prays in church is not ours to make but rather the father or the husband I I do think Paul gives us the
45:12
the outlines of order and peace but within that we have made it a rigid structure of clergy Ley well let's
45:23
close in prayer father we do ask that you would guide us in these matters we we know that we have differences of opinion and differences of of tradition we pray that you would help us
45:34
to see through those to the meaning of the Holy Spirit in your word and that then we would abide by what you have written and our hearts would be open to
45:48
know what each one of us is to do to provide for the building up of the body that you might be glorified and Jes Jesus Christ
45:58
Jesus Christ exalted and the world might see that Christians are Christians are indeed different a new Humanity light in
46:09
the midst of a Dark Age we ask this father For Your Glory and for our good we ask it in Jesus name
